Are the Russians still in Gori, or have they left Gori? Have they agreed to leave Gori, or have they refused to leave Gori? The MSM is all over the place on those questions, trying to be authoritative when they obviously have no idea what is going on. Probably because the Pentagon, despite repositioning spy satellites to see what’s going on, doesn’t know, either.
Via Small Wars Journal.
THE TEXAS SCRIBBLER 
I strongly suspect that Pentagon knows very well what is going on.
It is just that the uncertainty works both ways, and all sides so far prefer to keep it that way.
Russian forces are going to stay in Georgia indefinitely – by agreement brokered by Sarkozy and supported by Bush:
“During his visit to Moscow, … Sarkozy agreed to a six-point document setting out the terms of the cease-fire and the basis for “peace” talks to follow.
The document’s six points included the following principles: The non-use of force; a cease-fire; a guarantee of access to humanitarian aid; the garrisoning of Georgian military forces; the continued deployment of Russian forces in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and anywhere else they wish to go; and an international discussion of the political status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
As a reporter for France’s Liberation noted, by agreeing to the document France abandoned the basic premise that Georgia’s territorial integrity should be respected by Russia. Moreover, by leaving Russian forces in the country and giving them the right to deploy wherever they deem necessary, Sarkozy accepted Russian control of Georgia. By grounding Georgian forces in their garrisons, (or what is left of them after most of Georgia’s major military bases were either destroyed or occupied by Russian forces), Sarkozy’s document denies Georgia the right to defend itself from future Russian aggression. ”
Source.
Snoop, it is touching how much faith some people have in the abilities of the Pentagon. If you had been in the American military as I was you would have much less. Satellite cameras do not distinguish between armies on the ground, and our government is notorious for having few if any spies on the ground anywhere. I agree that our government, shaming itself every day, would prefer not to know the precise details. Still, I have my own level of faith in the country, which allows me to hope that something meaningful besides airlifting blankets and MREs is afoot.
Tatanya, Russia has long been in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, already, so that is nothing new. But Bush is demanding they leave the rest of Georgia. It is strong language that it will hard to step back from. We will have to wait and see. As for Glick, yes, I read her piece. But Snoop has taught me to see her for the alarmist she sometimes is. I don’t think we know what Saakashvili and Rice have agreed to, or how much of Sarkozy’s appeasement of Russia has been accepted by the Georgians–or by us. I just hope the “peacekeepers” aren’t the usual contingent of feckless blue helmets, like the ones in Lebanon.
Tatanya, Russia has long been in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, already, so that is nothing new. But Bush is demanding they leave the rest of Georgia. It is strong language that it will hard to step back from. We will have to wait and see. As for Glick, yes, I read her piece. But Snoop has taught me to see her for the alarmist she sometimes is. I don’t think we know what Saakashvili and Rice have agreed to, or how much of Sarkozy’s appeasement of Russia has been accepted by the Georgians–or by us. I just hope the “peacekeepers” aren’t the usual contingent of feckless blue helmets, like the ones in Lebanon.
What do you mean, Russia has long been in SO and Abkhazia? Those are formal parts of Georgia.
I don’t know what peacekeepers you talk about. I reread the Glick’ article; there is no mention Russians agreed to let international peacekeepers into Georgia, not now not later. Why would they do that? SO the world will learn the real facts, not propagandist lies?
Don’t see anything remotely alarmist in what Glick says.
What do you mean, Russia has long been in SO and Abkhazia? Those are formal parts of Georgia.
I don’t know what peacekeepers you talk about. I reread the Glick’ article; there is no mention Russians agreed to let international peacekeepers into Georgia, not now not later. Why would they do that? SO the world will learn the real facts, not propagandist lies?
Don’t see anything remotely alarmist in what Glick says.
I will hunt up the sources for you, if you like. The breakaway provinces are formal parts of Georgia, certainly, but Russia has had, shall we say, “friends with weapons” in them for some time. Glick is not the only source on this subject. The peacekeepers idea has been mentioned elsewhere. And Russia is not the only player in the game. To wit, Poland’s new acceptance of American anti-missle batteries. It is not all up to Russia to decide.
I will hunt up the sources for you, if you like. The breakaway provinces are formal parts of Georgia, certainly, but Russia has had, shall we say, “friends with weapons” in them for some time. Glick is not the only source on this subject. The peacekeepers idea has been mentioned elsewhere. And Russia is not the only player in the game. To wit, Poland’s new acceptance of American anti-missle batteries. It is not all up to Russia to decide.
Of course they had friends with weapons – with Russian weapons. For the purpose they just fulfilled. There are tens, if not hundreds, places and peoples like Ossetians in the Caucasus – ingushets, chechens, karabakh azeris, multitude of dagestanian tribes, etc. They all had been forming alliances between themselves or with exterior powers (Turkey, Iran, Britain, Russia) to advance their own goals since the time immemorial. Yes, Stalin decided Caucasian borders the way he saw fit – no consultations with locals were involved, but it’s better to respect existing borders fort eh sake of peace than open the can of worms which is Caucasus and allow every mountain village to declare themselves independent.
But that’s not even teh case with Ossetians – they just got used by Russia, as pawns they are; if Russia really cared for their independence, they will allow North and South Ossetia to unite – I don’t see it happening any soon.
As to “not for Russia alone to decide” – I agree with Zen on this point: we don’t have consistent doctrine/policy in regards to Russia. Any gestures our government display, remain isolated incidents. Which is very troubling, to say he least.
Of course they had friends with weapons – with Russian weapons. For the purpose they just fulfilled. There are tens, if not hundreds, places and peoples like Ossetians in the Caucasus – ingushets, chechens, karabakh azeris, multitude of dagestanian tribes, etc. They all had been forming alliances between themselves or with exterior powers (Turkey, Iran, Britain, Russia) to advance their own goals since the time immemorial. Yes, Stalin decided Caucasian borders the way he saw fit – no consultations with locals were involved, but it’s better to respect existing borders fort eh sake of peace than open the can of worms which is Caucasus and allow every mountain village to declare themselves independent.
But that’s not even teh case with Ossetians – they just got used by Russia, as pawns they are; if Russia really cared for their independence, they will allow North and South Ossetia to unite – I don’t see it happening any soon.
As to “not for Russia alone to decide” – I agree with Zen on this point: we don’t have consistent doctrine/policy in regards to Russia. Any gestures our government display, remain isolated incidents. Which is very troubling, to say he least.
I agree, except on the lack of a consistent doctrine/policy in regards to Russia. We have avoided fighting them directly for at least the 60-odd years since they acquired nuclear weapons–except by proxy, i.e. North Korea and North Vietnam, to name the two main ones–which is a very consistent policy. I expect our leaders don’t want to use little Georgia as a proxy, except diplomatically, but we may be forced to do so with Syria and Iran, for instance.
I agree, except on the lack of a consistent doctrine/policy in regards to Russia. We have avoided fighting them directly for at least the 60-odd years since they acquired nuclear weapons–except by proxy, i.e. North Korea and North Vietnam, to name the two main ones–which is a very consistent policy. I expect our leaders don’t want to use little Georgia as a proxy, except diplomatically, but we may be forced to do so with Syria and Iran, for instance.
I should probably mention Iraq as a proxy-battle, as well, since Saddam was cozy with the Russians, bought their weapons, and is reported to have relied on them to spirit his WMD out of the country while Bush did his almost profitless UN tap-dance before our invasion.
I should probably mention Iraq as a proxy-battle, as well, since Saddam was cozy with the Russians, bought their weapons, and is reported to have relied on them to spirit his WMD out of the country while Bush did his almost profitless UN tap-dance before our invasion.
Tatyana, it looks like Glick was wrong. The agreement signed by Georgia calls for the Russians to leave, according to this from American Armed Forces Press:
“A cease-fire agreement signed today by the president of the former Soviet republic of Georgia calls for Russian troops to immediately leave his country, America’s senior diplomat said in the Georgian capital today. ‘And now, with the signature of the Georgian president on this cease-fire accord, all Russian troops and any irregular and paramilitary forces that entered with them must leave immediately,’ US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said during a news conference in Tbilisi with Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili at her side.”
Rest is at:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=50835
Tatyana, it looks like Glick was wrong. The agreement signed by Georgia calls for the Russians to leave, according to this from American Armed Forces Press:
“A cease-fire agreement signed today by the president of the former Soviet republic of Georgia calls for Russian troops to immediately leave his country, America’s senior diplomat said in the Georgian capital today. ‘And now, with the signature of the Georgian president on this cease-fire accord, all Russian troops and any irregular and paramilitary forces that entered with them must leave immediately,’ US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said during a news conference in Tbilisi with Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili at her side.”
Rest is at:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=50835
We’ll see how they comply.
I expect it will take a while. They seem to be busy setting forest fires and destroying villages. Charming people.